Unfortunately, less than 10 percent of them receive any treatment.. Congratulations to your daughter and family, Darlene. @Deb, its hard for me to express the outrage I feel for the drunk driver who took the lives of your friends parents and for the physical and emotional suffering they inflicted on you and your friend. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. Muff Potter wrote: Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. I dont know. But please dont attach my name to it and say that Im ratifying it. That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. It is wrong. I am glad that your friend survived. I lost a number of friends in high school who didnt. So very Dark Ages. For example a young man who was one of RC Jr's personal assistants had lost his driver's license because of multiple DUIs. These evangelical arguments that its in the Bible and that settles it get very old. I've been listening to true crime lately and there is SO much 'this person probably murdered their wife but they plead down so they only got a year' and 'this person wasn't charged for rape about 5 times for lack of evidence and then oops, they turned out to be a serial killer and none of that was on file' stuff. It takes a tremendous faith in Gid, as well as support from non judgement all Christians to let go and let your child experience the consequences. I learned fairly early in life to fear drunk driving. Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.George Carlin,When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. Velour wrote: After all the assistant still needed to run numerous errands for RC, and a little thing like a suspended driver's license wasn't going to get in the way of that. Lea wrote: Not always. Check on a story that seems radically improbable. He had severe arthritis as well it totally crippled him to the point he could not work, took gold shots, eventually, the treatment and bad medical advice killed him. Enter a grandparent's name. The Pittsburgh Press. Anyone who bothers to check out the evidence, and the evidence is overwhelming, will be convinced thats exactly what theyve done his entire life. I truly hurt for you. Why should they be deprived of love and fellowship? Would your answer remain the same? A gamer I knew got rammed and killed by a drunk driver around 20 years ago. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. Dont imagine anything but being run out on a rail. I already alluded to the fact that there is much more than the public is aware of. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. Actually, their chirping is far more natural and more beautiful than the cash register at the book store. Look at the fruit. Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. Through the years, we have heard that RC SproulJrhas had an issue with drinking. Heres the pattern thats been repeated many times over the years: RC commits some grievous transgression, gets busted, is held accountable, confesses and repents, but then is quickly shown to have simply used a show of confession and repentance as a means to an end. I am sorry to complain, thankyou for sharing about your Dad, Brian. The father may be in just as much help as the son from experts who deal with alcoholics and from free groups like Al-Anon, for the family and friends of alcoholism. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. Im so sorry, I promise I wont ever do it again is the first line of defense of the alky, no extra charge for the tears. Page 14. I am a choco-holic. Maybe thats how it is supposed to work? Velour, I said haha about the typo which the authors of this post had inadvertently made in the text of their post. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? But with my Christian friends and family I am often second guessed. Can you please identify the comment? As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. I didnt even over-eat. By the way, you have posted before what area of medicine you worked in. Or for his wife? I remember how lonely I was when I first walked away from the spiritually toxic environment that I found in the inner circle of that church. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. That is the most important thing I learned in Al-Anon, a support group for family members/friends of alcoholics. I respectfully disagree. Welcome to TWW! Please stop advocating for his children? And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. Or perhaps it is a reaction against that teaching. Thanks. But her children have been wounded and scarred. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. How do you see it different from me? I am not sure one can blame leukemia on a toxic waster problem with surety. I am a hardliner. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. I could have had my mother die at home like she begged and that is a sin I will never forgive myself for. 2. being too negative and saying nothing works (which I did not say in the first place). RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) These men have made fortunes off the backs of faithful, trusting people. The body has many parts. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] Churches through the valley recommended us to parents of teens in trouble with drugs and alcohol. Nothing in life is full-proof. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. either lived in a town with toxic waste problems or went to a school that had toxic waste problems. He is living under the supervision of other strong, caring family members who watch over him and he is slowly regaining his ability to function normally, as well as his dignity. He lost one wife and two beautiful daughters because of it. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. Thus securing a good and firm foundation, perhaps? I dont think so, but only God knows. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Without accountability, anything else is worthless. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. Velour wrote: We dont know. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Addictive behavior can certainly impact the mind and body, so that the medical community has to eventually treat the consequences of alcohol abuse. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. (And this is coming from me, who pointed out in one blog post on my Daisy Blog that I am confounded and disappointed that she and her co-blogger have prohibited discussion of codependency at their domestic violence blog.). I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. ALL FAKE NEWS. You have a good heart. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. I am sorry to hear this. i have mental pictures of what everyone looks like wonder how accurate i am. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. I would advise caution. Sproul is survived by his childhood sweetheart and wife of fifty-seven years, Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. We were reluctant to write about this since he continued in ministry under his dad. I am sorry for the pain of alcoholism in your family and your losses to that disease. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. My mothers brother died of alcoholism. I am well aware of the failure rates of alcoholics and substance abusers. Velour wrote: Eventually I found assurance in my peace. Yeah, he needs help. I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. Till I found TWW & SSB. youll follow his example. @ Claire: And it made us see that the pain we had experienced with our oldest son could be used for good.href=#comment-329312 title=Go to comment of this author>Velour: Your situation reminds us that there are excuses and there are reasons and your real anxiety over your daughters illness was a REASON, not an excuse for medicating .. you were right to get help and thank God you did. @ Velour: The church. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. I would be very surprised if he hadnt at least been required to go to a few meetings. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. Serous help? But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. Our sin is as sinful as is his. You seem to think more highly of church than I do in these matters, however, because I think that getting church to perform up to speed in these areas is a hopeless quest. I am sorry that you are in pain and may have to have surgery. Like RC2, he drove around drunk with our grandkids in the car. I find that the best part of blogging. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! I just want to be true-blue, show him that God doesnt run away from us when we are bad. I take Barbara and what she stated. 4. I dont think so, but only God knows. The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. I posted that list to you multiple times. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Like RC, none of us can dictate to our grown children how to live their lives. I am not saying any of that to discourage anyone from seeing a MHP or taking medications. To say that I am very very concerned for the children hes given drink to, and his own children as well, is a huge understatement. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. RC2 as an intelligent child and adolescent would learn to leverage that, and then we are off to the races toward where we are now. This is normal for their family. Barbara Roberts wrote: and drive with children while drunk! Because DUIs are manly While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. My wifes oldest son is alcoholic. I doubt it. @ refugee: We really need to drop it as this point. You can be sure that Barbara, Dee, and I sit on a lot of information that never gets released to the public. These need compassion. Because I actually get it. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. I do however agree with everything else youve said. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. Velour wrote: u%\la7vQ8V$=SDkMZjDGZ1Ma-=X|P)qJ-ck`koxRx^D"N;~*;('q. While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. If so, how did the other impression get started and take hold, do you think? More like As much as I can, as strong as I can, to get as hammered as I can, as fast as I can? I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. I agree with you that the judge probably ordered that Sproul Jr. go to some 12-step recovery meetings, as that is normal what the probation department would recommend in their report to the court. Sproul 2s drinking. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. Max wrote: Oh, good grief. Correct me if Im wrong! Steam explosions from a pressurized system rupture are BAD. I may or may not have had a glass of wine after reading this thread. After burning his bridges there he left and joined the CPC, another denom he had nothing to do with starting. I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. But, in the case of a person that just will not repent and get help, and they refuse to own their sin, I Cor 5 is pretty clear. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. Like Liked by 1 person. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). 1. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. We asked to leave by the end of the month. Heres my list again: Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. At the party afterwards I got to talk with him and the reasons I gave above are largely why hes returning to the Faith. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. That is carrying it too far. If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. But sometimes that's where we end up. So glad you came through it alive and well! Two very separate issues here. Sorry. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. It has its uses because social pressure can be brought to bear from time to time, and you do know whether to let your kids go play over at so and sos house (not if Daddy is a drunk, for instance and keeping with this conversation) and it does get out who (married) was seen with whom (not a spouse) and what sweet young thing got into the car with whom after school after being forbidden to do that. As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. There is still much distress on this thread, but it does my heart good to see people trying to find common ground. I hadnt thought of it in just that way; I just knew it was um foolishness. I wonder if the people who are advocating for alcoholics to be removed from a church mean only specifically a person who also works in a leadership position, such as pastor? Alcoholism is like other types of drug addiction. That is them saying that, not me. Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/ We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. DUI/DWI with minors in the vehicle is a crime. (And its my understanding that that is the exact attitude of RC Jr. and his followers towards alcoholics in their midst, including a couple of young men who came to learn from him at the Highlands Study Center. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. @ brian: Improper judgement is known to be observed during alcohol impairment. It will help you recognize that the picture you paint about RC Jr is wishful thinking that doesnt line up with reality. Pick up any newspaper and read. Fuss. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. I dont drink alcohol. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. Too. Churches frequently blow it on all of the big issues mental health, domestic violence, divorce, and sexual abuse because they remain unteachable and think they have all of the answers. I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. The only people who are likely to be able to pick up on it are other alkies. Answer: not that much so dial it back. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. 14:23). maybe we could have a cuppa sometime wouldnt that be somethin. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. the process that you just described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. What is that about? Good for him. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600. I dont remember if it was the Spinderella blog or somewhere else, but I do remember reading a comment from a former member of his church whose kid was in Sproul Jrs car when he was driving drunk, and (if Im remember right) after the kid told the parents, they never permitted their kid to ride with him again. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. Anger, no. (For readers that dont know Barbara, she and Jeff Crippen write over at the A Cry for Justice blog about domestic violence in the church.). She was married to Howard Sproul who . That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. I believe God gave me a second chance at life, and I am so grateful! Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. Even pre-internet, a person could lug out their printed Yellow Pages phone book and look up the names of psychologists and so on. Haha. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). im sorry this is happening, dee. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. I had to research my problems on my own to figure out what was wrong with me, and to find solutions. But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! Generally will not drink around them. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. The church should do their level-best to get help for his wife and children. Then the plea deal is even worse than listed. @ Claire: You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. I do agree that people wont change unless they want to. People should not have to die or be maimed before our courts meet out punishments that suit the crime. I do not believe that anyone is doing him any favors by enabling him. Third Woman Victim of Tullian Tchividjians Seduction Gives Details; She Reportedly Extends Timeline of His Adulteries Back into2013, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part1, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part2, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part3, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part4, Tullian Tchividjian Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and SpiritualAbuse, Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A BrokenChurch, Tullian Tchividjian Stripped of Pastor Credentials; Continues Speaking Behind the Pulpits of Twitter andFacebook, Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments StrongWomen. In life to fear drunk driving ( ' q the conscience ( vv books, dont yourself. 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